Noble Grape

• November 2009

  Hey Dmcker, One list was wines that I drink, another was grape varieties. I can't say I am hugely fond of Cabernet on it's own, with the exception of Old Cali Cab. I certainly no longer buy Cabernet, with very few exceptions, a case or three of 2005 Bordeaux and the occasional... Read moreHey Dmcker, One list was wines that I drink, another was grape varieties. I can't say I am hugely fond of Cabernet on it's own, with the exception of Old Cali Cab. I certainly no longer buy Cabernet, with very few exceptions, a case or three of 2005 Bordeaux and the occasional bottle or three of Cabernet. It would come in fourth on the list of "noble" grapes for me. I see you have a similarly difficult time in narrowing down your list! Such is the beauty of this hobby.    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic What's your favorite grape(s) by Gregory Dal Piaz

  
  

• November 2009

  So a question in one of these threads, or perhaps in a comments thread on one ... it works just fine. So the noble grapes are those that produce the world's finest, most complex, most ageable wines. My top three. 1 - Nebbiolo, now that wasn't a surprise 2 - Syrah, maybe that was... Read moreSo a question in one of these threads, or perhaps in a comments thread on one ... it works just fine. So the noble grapes are those that produce the world's finest, most complex, most ageable wines. My top three. 1 - Nebbiolo, now that wasn't a surprise 2 - Syrah, maybe that was more of a surprise 3 - Pinot Noir - Ok let's be real, I'm talking primarily about Burgundy My top three non noble grapes, and the wines I am liable to be drinking most often. 1 - Sangiovese, ok this is a bit of an outlier in the sense that Sangiovese makes some wines that can compete with the worlds best. I drink lots of Chianti, Rosso di Montalcino, and Vino Nobile not because they are the most complex and age worthy wines produced. They're not. What they are are some of the worlds most food friendly wines, at least for the foods I eat! 2 - Zinfandel - Like Sangiovese I don't drink Zin looking for a religious experience, however when I have some spicy foods, a bit of barbeque, plain old burgers or sausages Zin can be the perfect partner. And besides, at the prices I'm paying it's tough to get a more interesting wine in s full throttle fruit forward style. Ok I see an argument coming there! 3 - Barbera - Much like Sangiovese, Barbera just fits the foods I tend to eat. Sangiovese, in all its permutations tends to be much more widely available but I do love the Barbera flavor profile. A sentimental favorite, actually two, are the wines I grew up with; Teroldego and Schiava, heck I'll even throw in Lagrein. I drink them when I can but there are limited choices here in the states. So what's your favorites    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic What's your favorite grape(s) by Gregory Dal Piaz

  
  

• October 2009

  This subject is near and dear to me. My wife loathes white Rhones, mostly due to the fact that she craves acidity in her whites and several of the white Rhones she's tried verge on the soft, plump end of the spectrum. Something to remember is that there are a slew of different... Read moreThis subject is near and dear to me. My wife loathes white Rhones, mostly due to the fact that she craves acidity in her whites and several of the white Rhones she's tried verge on the soft, plump end of the spectrum. Something to remember is that there are a slew of different grapes that go into these wines, all with distinct profiles, textures and flavors. White Hermitage is probably considered the most 'noble,' as the best (from Chave) can evolve into Meursault-like expressions of Marsanne, w/ brilliant minerality and honeysuckle driven flavors. These are also the most expensive, but whites from St. Joseph, though rare, are an excellent introduction into fine, old vine Marsanne. Viognier from the north, whether it be Chateau Grillet (the only appellation named for the producer, or vice versa) or a fine Condrieu is one of the sweetest smells in wine. Apricots and wild flowers, w/ a bit of peaches mixed in for good measure. These wines, in my opinion, need to be drunk very young, while their vibrancy is at an apex, showing off their exotic beauty. They tend to lack the structure to age, yet exceptions to the rule always exist. The southern Rhone gets confusing, but a good place to start is in the generic 'Cotes du Rhone' appellation. Janasse makes cheap, fabulously pure white CDRs and St. Cosme is a consistent winner for the price. The two stalwarts of Chateauneuf blanc are stylistic opposites- w/ Beaucastel's big, thick Roussanne dominated whites being the most famous (total winter wines, low in acidity and jammed w/ rich, unctuous flavors), but Clos des Papes being the most fine. Clos des Papes is a melange of just about every white grape allowed in the region, w/ racy acidity, firm mineral grip and subtle, nutty flavors. Rayas is another white that is way too pricy, but ages beautifully. For those that want to migrate from the new world to the old, Boisrenard blanc & Domaine St. Prefert use a bit of oak to spice up their whites & they may be good starting points. Much love for the white Rhones- tis the season to pop one!    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic Rhone White Wines for Fall by Brad Coelho

  
  

• October 2009

  I've seen my tastes change over the decades. I started with cheap Italian and ... part, Grenache is just not a noble grape, but the Syrah of the norther Rhone continues to ring my bell, though the spoofed stuff is as bead as any. I prefer traditionally made wines, from Burgundy,... Read moreI've seen my tastes change over the decades. I started with cheap Italian and ... part, Grenache is just not a noble grape, but the Syrah of the norther Rhone continues to ring my bell, though the spoofed stuff is as bead as any. I prefer traditionally made wines, from Burgundy, Rioja, South Africa, Australia, so my tastes are split more along stylistic lines that regional lines. Having said that I try and drink mature Barolo as frequently as possible and love me some Barbera and Chianti for weeknight drinking    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic Changes in taste: what's... by Gregory Dal Piaz

  
  

• September 2009

  I was asked by a fellow snoother to write a bit about Norton wines after I had expressed some opinions regarding same in another forum thread. So in an effort to comply and, for what it's worth, share my humble knowledge of the subject, I present the following: I moved to Missouri... Read moreI was asked by a fellow snoother to write a bit about Norton wines after I had expressed some opinions regarding same in another forum thread. So in an effort to comply and, for what it's worth, share my humble knowledge of the subject, I present the following: I moved to Missouri in 1994 after having lived the prior ten years in Sonoma County, CA. My taste buds were pretty well adapted to the noble wine grapes grown in California's perfect climate. I frequented the great wineries of Napa and Sonoma and my first impression of Missouri wines was not very favorable. Then I learned that the true vinifera grapes I was used to didn't survive in the harsh Midwest weather. However, hybrids of some of the grapes such as Chardonel (a Chardonnay hybrid) and Vidal Blanc (a French hybrid of Ugni Blanc and Seibel) did do well and produced some excellent wines. But, the one that really surprised me was a wine I didn't know called Norton (sometimes also called Cynthiana). First, I should begin by stating that Norton is a grape that is uniquely American in origin which is principally used to produce a dry red wine. It was discovered and introduced to the world by Dr. Daniel Norton (1794-1842) of Virginia. It was first mentioned in William Prince's book "A Treatise on the Vine", published in 1830. It is presumed to be a hybrid of the Bland grape (a now extinct Vitis aestivalis hybrid of uncertain origin) and Miller's Burgundy (Pinot Meunier, a Vitis vinifera). Whatever it is, it happened by chance, and it was a lucky break for future American vintners. A few years after Norton's discovery, a group of German immigrants founded a town along the Missouri River called Hermann, Missouri. There they planted a considerable amount of Norton grapes which were used to produce some very fine wines. At the 1873 Vienna World Exposition a Norton wine from Hermann, MO won a gold medal and was pronounced one of the finest wines in the world. But, a few decades later came Prohibition and, for a while, the world forgot about Norton, Missouri and a great American wine. Sometime in the mid 1960's, a few adventurous people purchased, and began the long process of rebuilding some of the fine old wineries of Missouri and once again producing that almost forgotten wine, Norton. A decade later a second wave of adventurers began opening new wineries in the region. On June 20, 1980 the first federally approved AVA (American Viticultural Area) was given to Augusta, MO. That was eight months before Napa Valley, CA received it's AVA. The wine industry in Missouri had officially returned. Enough with the history lessons, so how does it taste? OK, now it's opinion time. I find Norton to be a lot like Pinot Noir. Not in taste, but in the fact that it's hard to find a really good one cheap. Norton can have a bit of that foxy taste that you usually associate with Vitis labrusca wines. It is a hybrid of a Vitis aestivalis (a native wild grape) after all. What I've found is that the vintners who put in the extra effort to take these grapes to the highest level they can, produce some truly wonderful Norton wines. But, they do charge extra. You can expect to pay $20-50.00 for a good bottle of Norton. This may not sound like much compared with a great Cabernet Sauv. or Pinot Noir, but if you consider the spectacular Zinfandel and Shiraz(Syrah) wines available for under $20.00...well... Let's take barrels for instance. In California today they primarily use French oak barrels for their better wines, and American oak for only part of the process. In Missouri, most of the wineries use only American oak to age their Norton. I feel this makes the wine too oakey and so tannic, that you really can't drink it in less than ten years. It also doesn't help to disguise the foxy nose of the wine the way that a good French oak barrel could. A handful of Missouri wineries, like Stone Hill, have experimented with French as well as Hungarian oak barrels for Norton wine in recent years and have produced some amazingly good and complex wines. As I write this, I am drinking a 1997 Cynthiana (Norton) wine from Heinrichshaus Vineyards. He used primarily Hungarian and older American oak barrels to make this wine. It is still vibrant and has not yet peaked, but the Norton taste is not dominated by the foxiness of the grape, nor the harsh tannins of new American oak. Here's a short list of wineries whose Norton wines I would highly recommend: Stone Hill Winery http://www.stonehillwinery.com/ St.James Winery http://www.stjameswinery.com/ Heinrichshaus http://www.heinrichshaus.com/ Adam Puchta http://www.adampuchtawine.com/ Crown Valley http://www.crownvalleywinery.com/ Sugar Creek http://www.sugarcreekwines.com/ Blumenhof Winery http://www.blumenhof.com/ There are a lot of other wineries I could list, but all of the ones I have named produce consistently good Norton wines as well as other varietals. This should be enough information to get you off to a good start. Cheers!    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic Norton - a brief history of... by D9sus4

  
  

• July 2009

  Well I guess it's clear that I just hate that term "noble" as applied to grapes. Otherwise of course I agree with you. As far as transparency, I don't know. That has to be defined. But maybe forty years ago grenache wasn't respected. Now it is. Twenty years ago aglianico... Read moreWell I guess it's clear that I just hate that term "noble" as applied to grapes. Otherwise of course I agree with you. As far as transparency, I don't know. That has to be defined. But maybe forty years ago grenache wasn't respected. Now it is. Twenty years ago aglianico wasn't respected, or nero d'avola. Now they come in $100/bottle versions! And those really were peasant grapes! So I completely agree that it's a matter of focus. E.g. they were grubbing up carinena in the south of France and in California but in Priorat they started making carinena that is world class wine. Although that said, there are still a few grapes that I just don't get. Maybe they can produce great wine and I'm not going to dismiss the possibility, but I haven't had anything great from them yet. Pinotage comes to mind. Petite verdot. Maybe tannat ( and I've been drinking a lot of it lately). Grignolino. Graciano. Molinara. Dolcetto - although depending on what it is, that may in fact be better than sometimes thought. Regent. And dozens, probably hundreds of others. But how can we say? The world is a big place and when they decided to plant malbec in France, they surely didn't think that the "new" continent of South America was going to prove itself a better home for the grape. I'm curious tho - I haven't heard that term in many years. Have you come across it recently? Seems like I remember seeing it in books a number of years ago but not so much recently. Of course, I haven't read all that much recently either.    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic What makes a grape noble?... by GregT

  
  

• July 2009

  D- Agree tenfold w/ regards to heterogenity in wine tasting & drinking. It does seem that particular grapes have somewhat of a varietal ceiling in terms of quality....w/ Grenache, the great ones tend to be few and far between....yet an older vintage of Rayas demonstrates what... Read moreD- Agree tenfold w/ regards to heterogenity in wine tasting & drinking. It does seem that particular grapes have somewhat of a varietal ceiling in terms of quality....w/ Grenache, the great ones tend to be few and far between....yet an older vintage of Rayas demonstrates what excellence is possible and certainly challenges assumptions we may make regarding Grenache's potential. The question is whether or not the few, fleeting examples of greatness w/ pure Grenache are great in spite of the varietal or because of it? Greg- I'm obviously w/ you- hence my whimsical bickering between grapes. Stratifying nobility in grape varieties through Italy has to be a daunting task....weeding through 1000 different variations and deciding which to puff up w/ phrase-work doesn't seem to be the Italian style. I remember reading a few textbooks right when I got into wine and the concept of a grape being noble always seemed a bit silly to me....they all seem to have unique characteristics which can be harnessed and focused into excellent wines- some are more high maintenance than others and some have more widely appealing profiles than others....but w/ Grenache, I do find its place in Chateauneuf to be a truly unique one....it doesn't taste like Chateauneuf outside of Chateauneuf...so I guess we could call it transparent- yet that would somewhat of a noble trait, no? :)    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic What makes a grape noble?... by Brad Coelho

  
  

• June 2009

  What's noble? A noble gas doesn't react with others. But you can't make the ... "serious" wines. The white noble grapes were Sauvignon Blanc, Riesling, and Chardonnay. The red noble grapes were Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, and Merlot. The Riesling had to be a nod to Germany,... Read moreWhat's noble? A noble gas doesn't react with others. But you can't make the ... "serious" wines. The white noble grapes were Sauvignon Blanc, Riesling, and Chardonnay. The red noble grapes were Pinot Noir, Cabernet Sauvignon, and Merlot. The Riesling had to be a nod to Germany, since France can't produce a good one. But that left out scores of other grapes. Cab and merlot are obvious, since they were produced on the estates of landed gentry or at least wealthy merchants - Bordeaux. The Chardonnay made Champagne, which was actively marketed as something luxurious and special. I think the pinot noir was a nod to the old Duke of Burgundy, because it's only in the last couple generations that Burgundy has become so special and respected - unlike Bordeaux, it was always the province of peasants with a few rows of vines. They discovered how to market that disadvantage - named it "terroir" and they were off, but that took them a long while to figure out. Down in the Rhone, those were the table wines for everyday drinking. It wasn't until Parker jumped on them in the 70s and 80s that they started to increase in price and prestige. As the Gallos of the French wine industry, they could have no claim to nobility. And don't forget - Garnacha, Monastrell, and Carinena are not native to France. So obviously they couldn't be included. Everyone does that - Cabernet Sauvignon has been in Rioja much longer than Garnacha, but since it's French, it's not legal. However in France, Cabernet Sauvingon is decended from Sauvingnon Blanc, so obviously it's pedigree is acceptable and it can be called noble. IMHO the phrase is a load of shit. There's not a grape in France that ages better than Tempranillo. There's nothing that I know of in France that is anything like Nebbiolo. And what is it about Sangiovese that is inferior to the "noble" grapes? And Blaufrankish has yet to be explored fully. And hundreds of others. The Portuguese have plenty to select. If I had to choose between a great mature Bordeaux or a great mature Hermitage, I'd pick the Syrah every time. But it's origins were obscure when the phraseology was developed. It's only recently been shown to be native to France. Had that been clear earlier, it probably would have been called "noble". It's all about marketing anyhow. If the grapes were so noble, why is it illegal to put the varietal blend on a bottle of Bordeaux? It's supposed to be about terroir, no? If indeed that is so discernable, it should trump the grape. Of course it doesn't and never will, but the idea of "noble" grapes is basically marketing. Meaningless if given a few minutes thought. I don't think many people use the phrase to denote much. At least I hope not. Best!    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic What makes a grape noble?... by GregT

  
  

• June 2009

  Well done, Brad. I drink lots of grenache, from Spain and the Rhone and nearby parts of southern France. That being said, I've yet to taste one that reaches the heights that cabs and pinot noirs and syrahs and nebbiolos and even sangioveses have shown me. Great everyday wines,... Read moreWell done, Brad. I drink lots of grenache, from Spain and the Rhone and nearby parts of southern France. That being said, I've yet to taste one that reaches the heights that cabs and pinot noirs and syrahs and nebbiolos and even sangioveses have shown me. Great everyday wines, sometimes even great blended wines themselves, and they've given me lots and lots of pleasure, but grenache is not, to me anyway, the best of the best. Not snobbery as much as decades of drinking experience. But I'm glad we don't have to be stuck with just one or two varietals. Love all the variety of taste and sensation from all the many others, besides just those mentioned here. And where would we be if we had to drink 100% of any varietal, without judicious blending? When it comes to wine, I'm not in the least monogamous...    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic What makes a grape noble?... by dmcker

  
  

• June 2009

  Perhaps some grape banter to get things started: Grenache asked Cabernet, ... simply, you aren’t a noble grape.” Grenache wondered what noble meant. Cabernet wasn’t exactly sure, yet always assumed it was noble because it came from Bordeaux, the best region in the world (and... Read morePerhaps some grape banter to get things started: Grenache asked Cabernet, ... simply, you aren’t a noble grape.” Grenache wondered what noble meant. Cabernet wasn’t exactly sure, yet always assumed it was noble because it came from Bordeaux, the best region in the world (and that sense of false bravado always made Cabernet forget about the fact that it was spawn from a one night stand between the floozy Sauvignon Blanc and its not so admirable father, Cabernet Franc). Grenache didn’t like being in oak very much, the place where all the noble kids tend to play, but felt defiant today and challenged “if you are so damn noble, then what do you need oak for?” Cabernet got a bit defensive. “Just because you can’t handle it doesn’t mean you have to knock it,” Cabernet said. Grenache replied, “Well all you taste of is oak these days. Since when were mocha, coffee, toast, graphite, vanilla and smoke your varietal character? Do you even know what you taste like without that oaky façade?” Now Cabernet was getting angry. “Listen you overly alcoholic runt, I last longer, have more muscle, better structure and cost a hell of a lot more than you do, so you best step off before I splinter you w/ my mighty oak tannins!” Grenache scoffed at Cabernet’s antagonism, growing in confidence as the verbal sparing continued. “Well I happen to be the world’s most influential wine critic’s favorite drink and I don’t need any make-up to look good. Last I checked wine drinkers no longer have the patience for you to come around while I am delicious right out of the gates.” Cabernet, once austere and rigid, was aghast that it was challenged by something so low on the vinifera food chain….but had to admit that there was something kinky about the way Grenache argued. “Well you certainly are a cocky little one. Although I’m somewhat repulsed by your inadequacies, you are growing on me…like a fungus. Care to step out for a drink?” “Gladly,” said Grenache. “How ‘bout a Chateauneuf?” ----I obviously don't care (considering that I am a gold card member in the Grenache-aholic club) & if anything, I tend to find nobility over-rated and boring....just wondering what your thoughts are out there    (hide)

  Forum post in the topic What makes a grape noble?... by Brad Coelho

  
  

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