Wine Talk

Snooth User: JonDerry

Shall we have a post today?

Posted by JonDerry, Dec 28, 2016.

Greg, you were right when you said it's tough to keep a forum going. Though this does seem to be an especially slow week all over the place...on the road, in business, etc. good to see people take some time out. 

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Reply by Really Big Al, Dec 28, 2016.

I always have something to do in retirement.  I was going to host a computer LAN party this afternoon / evening, but too many people were getting sick or had to work today.  However, I do have a guest coming over for dinner tonight - the owner of the Crystal City Wine Shop & the Washington Wine Academy (Jim Barker).  We've become good friends over the years of taking classes at his academy and helping pour wines during the summer months at the Wine in the Water Park events.  I wonder what wine he will select from our wine cellar to pair with the chicken I'm planning to grill.  A pinot perhaps?

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Reply by rckr1951, Dec 28, 2016.

I've checked in, but with extended family parading through all week I've not the time to really give the forum attention - Happy New Years everybody!

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Reply by Gregory Dal Piaz, Dec 28, 2016.

I'm back. Why not for a seinfeldesque post about nothing!

Here's a thought worth discussing. Why do people buy current release wines, mostly Cali cabs and Bordeaux, that are more expensive than properly mature bottles of the same wine?

Just something I ponder as I get shilled ever more expensive new releases. 

On another note, I'm going to add a video series to my production this year, nothing fancy, just a wine of the week reviewed the way a wine should be. Look out for the first installment coming next week or so.

 

 

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Reply by outthere, Dec 28, 2016.

I buy current release wines because finding them in the secondary market can be difficult. I am also what one winery calls a cork puller. I drink a lot of wines on the young side because I do not have the budget to wait many years for wines to develop. Not that there's anything wrong with that. (Token Seinfeld refernece)

As for buying aged wines on the secondary market my success has been fairly ho hum. Provenance is hard to ensure and now with the Coravin the chance of getting corked wine via auction is higher. But I keep trying! Good to see you back Greg. Look forward to your contributions moving forward.

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Reply by JonDerry, Dec 28, 2016.

It was one of those rare 24 hour periods (near enough anyway) without a post. Could imagine others peering in and moving on, as I was, and apparently Paul.

Al, speaking of sick, I've had a soar throat (post nasal drip as the doc called it) for nearly two months now. I've been soldering through it, drinking a decent amount along the way, but I decided this morning that something ought to change so I went to the doc for some mess. Z-pack started today as I save my bullets for New Years.

Greg, it's a good question! That'll be one of my New Years resolutions, to source more older bottles. Two retailers I trust for old are Rare Wine Co, and Wine House (LA), though I should work on adding to the list. Envoyer id imagine would be another good candidate.

OT touches on a big reason for the shyness about sourcing older. Something about a wine collector wants to buy on release and be sure of the provenance and doesn't mind being tasked with the stewardship of all the bottles...more marketing efforts are put forth for new releases also, which may also explain this phenomenon. Mailing lists and buyers relations with producers (gotta keep those up!) help along the buy new paradigm...and then there are a lot of young or new wino's making these often foolhardy buying decisions!

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Reply by DNath991, Dec 29, 2016.

Hey I'll join in and support the momentum. I purchased a few bottles last week and was going to post, but figured most people were probably occupied with all of the holiday activities. I also had an interesting conversation with a French somm regarding decanting, more to come on that.

Regarding sourcing older, I've wanted to experience more aged wines and have my hand at possibly aging a few myself. Honestly, I just don't have the required patience, I think... Although I do have an '06 and an '04 on hand that I bought in larger batches when they were released. They've since become those bottles I'll open for 'a special occasion'. May or may not be worth it, but I might as well keep it going. It might be the beginning of the process.

Hope you feel better JONDERRY, two months of a sore throat can exist as an annoyance at best. For me, plenty of oranges and water always help to rid a persistent bug.

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Reply by dmcker, Dec 29, 2016.

"Why do people buy current release wines, mostly Cali cabs and Bordeaux, that are more expensive than properly mature bottles of the same wine?"

Shhhhh, Greg. I like that I can find older bottles that someone else has cellared for me, from better vintages, for often far less than current offerings. Let's not spoil a good thing by letting the cat out of the bag. I asked myself that same question at the beginning of this decade when the Chinese mayhem was horrendous on first Bordeaux and then Burgundy new release pricing (and by then the Wall St. boys and girls had ruined Napa prices even more than the dotcommers had a decade earlier), but decided there was no upside to talking in a loud voice about the phenomenon. Maybe I'll regret having bought fewer new releases these days some 20 years from now, but then again maybe I won't even make it that long. And I'll have been drinking plenty of good wine at the right moment in its life before then.

And with offers from Chambers St. and others and the increasing popularity of Piedmont wines that we've all contributed to, I think you can add Barolo/Barbaresco to the list of wines where newly released infants are far more expensive than properly aged and ready-to-drink bottles.

OT, if you know what to look for (like, for example, ex-chateau!) there are definitely opportunities to get healthy aged bottles.

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Reply by Really Big Al, Dec 29, 2016.

Well, our small dinner party turned into around a dozen people, mostly friends of our daughter.  They kept to themselves in other rooms but we grilled up a lot of chicken that was shared.  So our friend Jim did opt for a Pinot Noir from our wine cellar, especially after I had one open from J. K. Carriere in Willamette Valley.  He selected a Domaine Serene, another one from Willamette Valley.  Both had a unique signature, and yes they were excellent.  We talked about wine and such, but more so about our recent trip to Cuba.  We had my web site up on the big screen so we could talk to a few pictures.  Good times.

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Reply by EMark, Dec 29, 2016.

Here's a thought worth discussing. Why do people buy current release wines, mostly Cali cabs and Bordeaux, that are more expensive than properly mature bottles of the same wine?

Let me take a shot at this, and this is along lines similar to Outthere's response.

Because it's easy.

You know I'm an iconoclast, Greg.  I truly believe that many people do not buy wines with the thought having a pleasant dining or sensory experience.  They are more interested in impressing somebody--ususally, another wine guy, but, maybe, a professional or social associate.  Now, I can do all kinds of research--fairly easily with on-line vendors, less so with brick and mortar establishments--and find, as you describe "properly mature bottles," but, c'mon, I don't have time for that.  I look at on-line wine boards and I find that the "cool" Napa winemakers are Thomas Rivers Brown and Mike Smith.  So, I go to the Myriad or the Rivers-Marie website, give up my e-mail address, and, Ta-dah, I am a collector of "cool guys'" wines.  Just go over to WB and look for the threads labeled "What Bedrock/Carlisle/Mike Smith Wine Did You Open Tonight."  How many of those do you think are "properly mature?"

Full disclosure:  I am not innocent of such charges.

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Reply by GregT, Dec 29, 2016.

JD - been moving, visiting, and forgot my computer and don't like to post from my phone because it's a PITA. But here's my contribution!

As to GdP's question - I suppose availability would be the issue. And second would be provenance. Last night I opened a 1996 Rodney Strong Cab that had no business aging but I never got around to drinking it. There it was so we opened it. Not a bad showing either. Actually tasted like a nice mature Cab. Was it a second growth Bordeaux? No. But good enough.

In fact I'm drinking a lot of early 1990s these days and my third guess is that most people buy new wines because they just don't know what an aged wine is. People on wine forums talk about a five or ten year old wine as an older wine.

BTW, good to see you around.

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Reply by dvogler, Dec 30, 2016.

I did a wine event today.  It was tough because some people couldn't make it (snowed in in Northern BC, sick etc).   Still a fine event attended by my boss and my wine buddy Chester another doctor friend.  The theme was Shiraz/Syrah and I decanted a 2008 Penfolds RWT, a 2013 Two Hand's Bella's Garden and a 2010 Silverback Syrah (Washington).  Follwed by a 2009 Molly Dooker "Carnival of Love" and some other stuff including an Errazuriz Don Maximiano 2008, some BC icons....

 

 

 

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Reply by JonDerry, Dec 30, 2016.

Some serious wines there DV...I toyed with the idea of buying some RWT a few times, very curious about that one.

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Reply by dvogler, Dec 30, 2016.

I can't say I'm a Penfolds fan as the ones I've had were the bargain ones.  The RWT had a nose like I've never smelled before.  It was like a leather jacket with violets in the pocket and tar on the sleeves.  So complex, but beautiful.  I didn't want to drink it.  I just kept smelling it for probably ten minutes.  The Bella's Garden was great, but young still.  I think if it had been eight years old, it might have been better than the RWT, but for half the price it'd be a no-brainer.  The Silverback nose was also very full and fragrant, but couldn't quite compete with the Aussies.  It was very nice, but I'll just think of it as being demure in the company of bimbos.

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Reply by JonDerry, Dec 30, 2016.

Sounds like a good night...

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Reply by rckr1951, Dec 30, 2016.

DV - I like Penfolds except the Rawson's Retreat and that level of their offerings also.  Haven't had an RWT in years though so it was good to hear you telling about it.  Happy New Years everyone, stay safe and don't watch to many bowl game - Ohio State vs Washington tomorrow night!

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Reply by Richard Foxall, Jan 4.

Back to GdP's comment.  Wine prices, esp of "collectible" stuff, have gone up faster than inflation.  A lot of the luxury buyers--out to impress--aren't very familiar with sourcing back vintages, they just know it's really hard to get on some mailing list, so they buy new wine from that list once they get to the top.  Someone who bought a great Barolo/Cal Cab/Bordeaux when it could be bought for $25 lists it and doesn't usually expect to beat inflation when they sell it because they have too much or their tastes changed.  And lots of us in the secondary market are skeptical about overpaying because you can never be sure of the provenance.  Not true for your DRC, Screagle, or Latour, but other stuff can look like a bargain. But, yeah, it blows my mind when I can buy an aged, ready to go older wine for less than the current wine by a long shot.  Those '90 Spottswoodes we were supposed to drink until Hurricane Sandy messed things up were about half the price of the then-current vintage. 

But finding older bottles can be such an investment of time that the economics of doing it are pretty iffy. 

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Reply by JonDerry, Jan 4.

Just find reputable sources like Rare Wine Co. Envoyer, and Zchambers, and wait for those e-mails to come along!

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Reply by Richard Foxall, Jan 5.

JD, point well taken.  I haven't dealt with Envoyer yet, so I need to add them to the list.  Better re-sellers like BPW, K&L, HDH and Benchmark are also places I look. 

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Reply by JonDerry, Apr 17.

This week's challenge: Try to find a Pinot Noir that EMark will truly enjoy. My gut say Cote de Nuits, Burgundy though I can't rule out Volnay, Irancy, or even New Zealand.

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Reply by EMark, Apr 17.

Wow, a mission like that would intimidate not just Mr. Phelps, but the entire IM Force.

I truly wish you luck, JD.

:-)

 

 

 

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