Wine Talk

Snooth User: jamessulis

Roses and Winery's

Original post by jamessulis, May 15, 2013.

While traveling through Napa Valley last month I noticed that all the Vineyards I visited had roses planted around their crops. They're planted and watched closely for any early signs of infestation on the land. They monitor the Roses closely and upon early signs of problems, protective measures are taken to make sure the grape vines receive a solution. Pictured here is Mario Andretti's Wine crops.

Replies

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Reply by Richard Foxall, May 24, 2013.

You threw a brick at him?  I'm thinking that is going to do more damage to your flowers than he did. 

Is there some kind of tulip that zaps like an electric eel?  Can you put red pepper flakes on them so if he hits one, it makes his eyes itch and burn? 

So we're heading up to Napa tomorrow. I'll definitely be more aware of the roses.  (If EdWilley is reading this, we're tasting at Bell!  Woohoo!)

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Reply by JonDerry, May 24, 2013.

Looking forward to the Napa trip report Fox.

I may try to see Mike Smith when I'm up in a couple weeks.

 

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Reply by gregt, May 30, 2013.

Here are some canaries. Took the pics this evening.

 

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Reply by gregt, May 30, 2013.

Some more.

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Reply by gregt, May 30, 2013.

And a few more.

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Reply by napagirl68, May 31, 2013.

GregT-

BEAUTIFUL!!!!!   I am a super-avid gardener, love, love, love it all- even pulling weeds! (with a nice glass of wine afterward!)

I really enjoyed your pictures :-)

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Reply by gregt, May 31, 2013.

I don't know why but I am too. I don't mind pulling weeds for some reason, although I was at my mother's a few weeks ago and pulled weeds and once again got a bad case of poison ivy!

The roses above were largely modern roses, but I like some of the older ones even more. This one for example, is a "found" rose that seems to be a tea but was found growing in Bermuda. It's white but each bloom will have a single petal that has a red stripe for some reason. 

This isn't even supposed to grow in my area, it's an old Noisette:

And across from that I have another tea that's not supposed to grow here but it's so big that I have a cardinal's nest in it right now.

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Reply by napagirl68, May 31, 2013.

GregT-

Interesting about the found rose in Bermuda.  I wonder if the stripe could be the result of a virus?  That is how variegated tulips are "produced".  Tulip breaking virus is used to get that "stripey" look.

Tulips of a single color must be kept away from the variegated varieties while growing, or the virus will infect them, causing some degree of "striping" in the solid colors.

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Reply by EMark, May 31, 2013.

Very beautiful, Greg.  Thanks for posting

On looking at the very first variegated example, I had a similar thought to the one that NG suggested regarding the virus.

I, of course, love the bearded iris.  The one above it, though, is very intriguing.  I have never seen a rose with that many petals.  It look more like a camelia.  Very cool.

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Reply by gregt, May 31, 2013.

The stripes are in fact caused by a virus. The first rose I ever saw that was striped was a Bourbon rose and it was the one that got me interested in them in the first place - I'd never seen one like that.  The virus doesn't necessarily manifest itself when the roses are bred so it's always a crapshoot when breeding them.  I happen to like it though.

There's a whole class of what they call "Bermuda" roses, most of which were found growing there, having been planted by long-forgotten individuals. Most of them appear to be teas, so that means they were likely planted in the early to mid 1800s when those were popular, but some, like the one above, called Smith's Parish, is just something that may have been bred there, accidentally or on purpose.

Emark -that orange rose is actually a knock off of very old fashioned traditional roses. If you look at Rembrandt and the Dutch painters, those are the roses people knew and that appear in all the old still-lifes. They are often called "cabbage" roses. Mostly they were Gallicas and Albas and Damask roses and they were one side or the other of pink, going all the way to white at one extreme and almost a red on the other.  If you look at the list of roses that Napoleon's mistress had at Malmaison, they're all traditional roses like that.

It wasn't until trade with China started in the late 1700s and really in the 1800s that the swirling star bud we all see in supermarket roses was introduced.  The China roses were amazing in that first, they re-bloomed and nobody had seen that before. Until then, roses were kind of like azaleas. They also had that unfolding star shape and long, elegant buds that nobody had seen, and they were tender and died in the French winters, which just added to their exotic appeal, and they sort of drooped when in bloom, which is why I held them for the pics. All of those things were astonishing to people who'd never seen them before, but on top of all that, some of them were yellow!  That gave breeders an entirely new palette. In the mid to late 1800s there were many beautiful roses bred.  

So people pretty much went crazy over the new roses and they started crossing them with the traditional roses that were known in Europe and today most roses are pretty much a result of those crosses. That orange rose was bred by a guy in Oregon, who passed away a few years ago, and named after his wife, who had red hair. He liked the old-fashioned shape but of course, nobody would have seen an orange rose several hundred years ago, so it's got a bit of the old and a bit of the new. And all of these happen to be incredibly fragrant - each with its own scent - some sweet, some peppery, which is why I think it's kind of funny when people say a wine has notes of "rose". 

It was in the 1900s that they came up with a new rose that grew upright on thick canes and had big blooms. They call those hybrid teas and those are what people tend to be familiar with today but they're not very good garden plants for the most part and they're horrifically prone to blackspot. And those are the ones usually planted at vineyards - at least the vineyards where I've noticed them.

The garden looks good right now. I'll sit out there tomorrow with some wine and we'll enjoy the aromas. In about a month it will look like hell but that's just the way it goes.  Cheers!

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Reply by Richard Foxall, Jun 2, 2013.

Greg, those are some of the most beautiful roses I have ever seen. 

I was going to comment on the stripes, but I think you and NG have said almost all there is to say.  However, if you want to read an interesting book on how things get to be the way they are, from caterpillar bodies (not as unlike ours as you think) to butterflies' spots, with applications to every living thing, the amazing Sean Carroll's "Endless Forms Most Beautiful" about genes and their expressions (it's way more about switches than genes, and viruses have a lot to do with disrupting all that) cannot be beat.  What's really amazing is that we have learned to control little bits of the code, but so much is still unpredictable because it turns out that there are fewer "genes" than we thought but many more interactions with switches or activation sections, which means that the sequence of activation of genes can be infinitely variable.  It explains why evolution can happen much more quickly than a simple gene-protein theory would suggest, and makes you realize that Darwin was remarkable for taking the leap he did.  Interestingly, Darwin did experiments with (you guessed...) roses.

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Reply by EMark, Jun 3, 2013.

Darwin was remarkable for taking the leap he did.

No question that Darwin's leap was remarkable.  Equally of interest, though, was that a contemporary, Alfred Russel Wallace, independently came to the same conclusion about what we now call Natural Selection.  Darwin and Russel did correspond, and when he realized that Russel's observations were leading him to the same conclusion, Darwin accelerated his efforts to publish Origin of the Species.  So, now the world knows Darwin's name, but Wallace not much more than an asterisk.

I suspect this type of coinciding scientifc development happens quite often.  The only instance that comes to mind where two independent efforts seem to now get equal credit is the case of the development of Calculus by Newton and Leibniz.  Of course, according to a Nova program that I saw a few years ago, there is a suggestion that Archimedes may have beaten both of them to that idea almost 2,000 years prior

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Reply by Richard Foxall, Jun 3, 2013.

I should give credit to Wallace as well.  Darwin sat on his observations for a very long time, both because he was scientifically very cautious and because he was concerned about the impact.  As a science junkie and former student of the history and philosophy of science, I ought to do better. 

Talk about thread drift!

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Reply by gregt, Jun 3, 2013.

But I think Wallace did in fact give credit to Darwin and actually acted as his champion, since Darwin was sickly from his voyages and Wallace was healthy. He recognized the volumes of work Darwin had amassed. The bit about viruses is really interesting - I remember reading years ago that maybe DNA itself is largely the result of viruses. So that means we're just a collection of viruses? Yikes.

The roses above include another virused one. It was bred by the same breeder of the first one I showed and it came out the same year, but it's a smaller shrub and the blooms are smaller and it's a little more disease resistant and not as fragrant.

And this was bred by a guy in Iowa who wanted to bree for that climate. He did great work and after he died, the university plowed up all his roses. The university didn't know how well-loved his roses were and they had to ask people around the world for cuttings to replace the garden, which is not restored at the University of Iowa.

 

 

s

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Reply by napagirl68, Jun 5, 2013.

It was in the 1900s that they came up with a new rose that grew upright on thick canes and had big blooms. They call those hybrid teas and those are what people tend to be familiar with today but they're not very good garden plants for the most part and they're horrifically prone to blackspot. And those are the ones usually planted at vineyards - at least the vineyards where I've noticed them.

Agreed.  A million percent!

Your posts are a delight to read...  I love the pictures too.  Keep them coming :-)

Here in the heat of the extreme eastern SF bay area, I have issues with my roses.  Cabbage roses/ David Austin roses just cringe in our dry, HOT summer-no matter how much water they get.  I've tried partial shade, and the blooms suffer of course.  They look AMAZING in spring tho! 

The hybrid teas stand up to the heat, but develop powdery mildew like crazy due to the heat and low air circulation in summer.  I use systemics AND a high grade Neem oil to help, but it's never great.  The blooms are great, but the leaves... meh.   Thinking of pulling those out and finding something else.  The only hybrid I have that has been a massive performer over many years, NO disease, prolific blooms- is a Jackson and Perkins "Opening Night".  Beautiful red rose...  I do have a "betty boop" floribunda that I have had for ~15yrs- in a container in one location, now in the ground.  Great blooms and NO disease since I've had her...

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Reply by Richard Foxall, Jun 5, 2013.

See, people think California is one big climate.  They wear shorts to Disneyland in the summer, then they freeze in SF.  NG has too much heat in the "extreme eastern SF Bay Area," or the western Central Valley, as I think of it--I mean, how is it the Bay Area when you get no maritime influence?

Meanwhile, here in poor little Oakland, where outsiders think you are dodging bullets (not in my hood, at least not anymore) or are a self-centered hipster, I get strawberries until July, tomatoes from June to December, and roses year round.  Possibly the world's second best climate after Palo Alto.  Except I think I grow better tomatoes. Seriously, Greg, you should start planning a Cali retirement.  There's a house for sale on my street, perfect for a couple, and they just dolled up the yard.  Three good wine shops and dozens of good restaurants within walking distance, even one with a Michelin star.

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Reply by napagirl68, Jun 5, 2013.

Foxall,

Yes, pretty much western central valley, but those hills behind act to block the coastal fog in early summer months (somewhat of an indirect maritime influence).. It is July/Aug that is brutal.

Oaktown is great for plants.. LOL.. mary jo is the plant of the year there!?!?   Kidding!!! Great climate for growers, I totally agree. A bit more overcast tho, than I like, for some plantings.

But I have to say.. being a 3rd gen SF bay area person, and gardening/shopping around NorCal since I was a child, the BEST climate for growing in Northern CA is SANTA CRUZ (proper)!   Santa cruz, being on the coast, has that coastal influence, however, it is part of a microclimate which involves lots of SUN along with that cool coastal component.  If you go just a few miles south to Aptos- more fog, less sun.  Go a bit north to Davenport- more fog, less sun.  As a person who has traveled/visited that coast for over 30yrs, I can vouch for a generally "sunny" climate in Santa Cruz proper area vs. outlying areas.  And yes, the plants there are happy.  As my fav garden guy in SC says, ANYTHING can grow here!

GregT- Plan your retirement to Santa Cruz :-)

 

 

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Reply by Richard Foxall, Jun 5, 2013.

The Mary Jane is grown indoors and hydroponically, so neither climate nor terroir (um, either no dirt or packaged dirt) comes into play.  The prevalence of available empty houses and proximity to the market is more important than the climate.  ;-)

Even within Oakland, there are microclimates.  We live just south of the GG, so the fog howls in through the gate at 5 ish during the summer, rolls up the hills right at the Claremont resort, curls down the ridgeline, and leaves us sitting in a little bowl of very little wind and only some fog--people in the hills get far more fog in the evening than we do.  Temps still drop at night, and by morning the fog has sunk down from the ridgelines, no longer pushed by the wind but now sinking because it is cool and dense.  Because our air isn;t as salty, I think we can grow many things that Santa Cruz struggles with, although grasses (which I have little use for) are probably the main example. That said, Santa Cruz is prime terroir for outdoor grows of MJ--it's as mandatory there to have a couple plants as it is to have a bumper sticker on your car in Berkeley.

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Reply by napagirl68, Jun 5, 2013.

LOL foxall!!!   good points :-)  Ok I grew up on Hillcrest rd. upper rockridge area.   Kinda btwn tunnel road and Claremont.  My mom used to take tennis lessons at the Claremont, and we used to get cheesecake at a bakery just up from there.  Are you a bay area native?  I am curious, because I love to remember the places of my youth that may not exist now...

What I noticed about the area was pretty much ~65-70F year-round. Yes, not much fog, but not much fluctuation in temp either.  Santa Cruz often hits the 80s- it is not rare- and tomatoes/basil can do great there.  Also, in that particular microclimate, wind is NOT a huge problem, like in Half Moon Bay.  Yes, there is salt, but it is not being blown around much.  Next time in santa cruz, take a look at the older, local cars vs. down in Monterey.  It is telling

I stand by my recommendation of Santa Cruz proper as one of the BEST growing areas for MOST plants in Northern CA.

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Reply by gregt, Jun 5, 2013.

Oh there are thousands of microclimates in CA.  It's mountainous, coastal, and has valleys cutting every which way. How could it not have all kinds of interesting climates?  And terroir is important for roses as much as for wine grapes!  And, as with wine grapes, a lot of the mass production stuff is in the central valley and when it's moved elsewhere, it doesn't seem to do as well.  The Austin roses were bred in damp England and when transplanted to sunny places like CA or TX, they just grew and grew and grew and didn't produce as many flowers, but sure turned into big plants. In damper places, they wither.

It's why I'm not a huge fan of his.

The first hybrid tea is generally considered La France, which was a cross between a tea and a hybrid perpetual. They tend to grow upright and have a single bloom per stem, so people like them for floral arrangements, but they tend to be bad garden plants just like the Austin roses. The worst of all IMHO, is the rose called "Peace", which was strategically named at the end of WW2 and at the peace conferences, they were presented to all of the participants. Beautiful rose in Reno NV. Crappy rose everywhere else. And just as beautiful, but about 100 years earlier, is Mrs. Dudley Cross, a gorgeous tea rose with the same coloring - pale yellow with a blush of pink on the outer petals. And fragrant. :

 

 



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