Wine Talk

Snooth User: Lu1225

My search for a Red

Posted by Lu1225, Nov 11, 2013.

Hello is there a Red that has a buttery, velvety taste, texture and that is  full bodied?

Replies

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Reply by duncan 906, Nov 11, 2013.

Buttery is not an adjective I have ever seen used to describe a red wine.It is sometimes applied to chardonnays that have been oaked.I can think of plenty of red wines that are full-bobied however

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Reply by EMark, Nov 11, 2013.

I am in agreement with Duncan on your use of the adjective "buttery" to describe a red wine, Lu.  Other than that word your description sounds like what I hear from raves about Pinot Noir-based wines.  Let's try this.  What wines have you tried that have approached your ideal?

 

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Reply by GregT, Nov 11, 2013.

The buttery taste comes from several things. Once wine is fermented, there's a second fermentation, called malolactic fermentation in which the malic acid is converted to lactic acid. Lactic = lactate = milk. So that's one source.

But you can also pick it up from barrels - the oak gets toasted and you get these nice butterscotch flavors.

With whites, sometimes they're aged on the lees and you pick up a bit of it there, although it's not really buttery, it's more a mouthfeel, And yes, you can get it in reds. Some taste like toast and jam. Some Grenache for example, especially from Australia but not only there - from Spain, try the Aquilon or even the cheaper Alto Moncayo. Or Termanthia by the Eguren bros - the new winemakers have dialed back on the buttery notes.

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Reply by EMark, Nov 12, 2013.

Very interesting, Greg.  Thanks.  Everything you say is consistent with what I see in white wines, but I had never experienced it nor can I recall a reading such a description characterizing a red wine.  I'll try to be more observant with the next few Spanish Garnachas that I try.  They are easier for me to find than Aussie examples.

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Reply by Lu1225, Nov 13, 2013.

Thank you GregT, Thank you all for your input. I'm still in my infancy learning wines. I hope to one day have the knowledge and Versatile palates as you all do

Thank you 

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Reply by Snoother 2149308, Sep 8.

I guess if you've never tasted it, you wouldn't understand the "buttery" request. But my favorite red wines have an intense buttery flavor. There's no other way to describe it. It's not "velvety" or sweet. Like if you were to get a fresh piece of soft french bread, spread some room temperature butter on it, put it in your mouth. Then while you're chewing, open up the back of your throat like you need to yawn, while keeping your lips closed. Now exhale through your nose. The smell/taste is of yeast and butter.

That's what a good buttery red wine tastes like.

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Reply by Snoother 2149308, Sep 8.

Here's an article where the author describes Hungarian wine, specifically Tokaji, as being a buttery red wine: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexberezow/2013/10/14/why-good-wine-tastes-like-buttery-popcorn/#1a7971d13241

And here's another article about Hungarian wine: 
http://winefolly.com/review/hungarian-wines-for-the-win/

And here is a red Tokaji: 
http://www.winemag.com/buying-guide/chateau-hellha-2007-5-puttonyos-aszu-white-blend-tokaji-tokaji

Good luck!

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Reply by rckr1951, Sep 8.

SNOOTHER 2149308 - I think you need to re-read those articles again - Tokaji is made from 6 grapes  and has has a golden color in the bottle.  Tokaji is made made after those grape grapes are stressed by the boytritis, picked and processed.  I've been drinking Tokaji for years, as have others here, and have a friend that has about 20-24 bottles of it - not one of them red.

Here is a picture of your Chateau Hellha (from google):

Quite a difference. 

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Reply by Snoother 2149308, Sep 9.

Interesting, because in the article he's very clearly talking about Hungarian red wine tasting like butter: 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexberezow/2013/10/14/why-good-wine-tastes-like-buttery-popcorn/#1a7971d13241

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Reply by Snoother 2149308, Sep 9.

Again here is the link I provided to a Tokaji wine that is labeled as "red"

http://www.winemag.com/buying-guide/chateau-hellha-2007-5-puttonyos-aszu-white-blend-tokaji-tokaji

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Reply by Snoother 2149308, Sep 9.

Just trying to be helpful, take it or leave it.

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Reply by GregT, Sep 9.

Snoother - wine from Tokaj is most definitely not red. It's made all or mostly from Furmint, which is a white grape. The reason that's got a buttery taste is mostly because of the barrels. The amount of diacetyl from the grapes, which is the compound that gives it a buttery quality, is limited. How much you get depends on the amount in the grapes, whether or not they've gone through full malolactic fermentation, what temperature the fermentation was done at, and several other things.

I've never seen red grapes growing in Tokaj.

Not sure if you've had the wines, but the wine reviewer at WE isn't particularly familiar with the wines of Tokaj. The wine from Chateau Hella that you linked is assuredly white.

The first of your articles talks about the sensation of butter, and he's right. Separately, he mentions the wines of Tokaj as being famous to him. The two comments have nothing to do with each other though - he mentions that the Tokaj wines are well-known and then he goes on to talk about how he likes red wine. That's OK but he wouldn't have said Tokaj is red if he's been there. He says he goes to Budapest, which will have many different Hungarian wines, many of which are red. But they're not from Tokaj, they're from different regions in Hungary.

In some cases, people don't want the wine to go through the secondary fermentation, the one that converts malic to lactic acid. Those wines tend to have a less pronounced buttery quality, but again, the butter notes can come from different sources. And it's more often whites that are kept from the ML fermentation to keep them lean and crisp.

And not all red wines have it either - it really depends on what the wine maker is trying to accomplish.

Anyway, welcome to the forum!

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Reply by rckr1951, Sep 9.

I do see where in that review it says - Category - Red.  This is a huge mistake on WE's part and should have been corrected.  There are other areas in Hungry that produce red wines, but in Tokaji. it's golden and sweet.

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Reply by Snoother 2149877, Sep 13.

I too am very frustrated. I got into reds about 15-20 years ago, and skipped right past the cheap stuff to the good stuff. My wife and I didn't really know what we were doing. We just bought bottles off the top shelf and enjoyed. We both distinctly remember many, many bottles where we described it as "butter" or "buttery". It was definitely our favorite. And we bought MANY random bottles with that flavor. A couple of years ago, she commented, hey, why don't you buy that buttery red wine anymore? And I have been looking ever since. I KNOW it exists, because if I was hallucinating, then my wife was too. And SHE doesn't do drugs! Haha! Soooooo... Where are the buttery red wines?? WHERE??

I just asked my wife. She points out that we used to drink only merlot and pinot. Now we drink almost exclusively cabs and malbecs. I'm pretty sure, thinking back now, they were merlot... 

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Reply by rckr1951, Sep 13.

The big difference in losing that buttery flavor that you describe is what GREG T. was talking about.  It was first really noticed in chardonnay as the use of new oak, French or American, became restricted or wasn't used at all in California.  Actually, I miss those.

Now to those that have that sensitivity to it, which it seems that you and your seem to have, the loss of that sensory input from the lack of oak usage runs the gamut in wines, reds and otherwise.  What I would do if I was you is this.  Pay close attention to the wine making techniques of wines you're buying, maybe do research first and find out if they use new oak and for how long, or the percentage of new oak used.

The more and longer it's used the greater the chances of finding what you're looking for.  Good luck in your hunt - keep us informed - I, for one am curious to see your results and thoughts.

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