Wine Talk

Snooth User: kelpcowboy

is this site really stealing TNs?

Posted by kelpcowboy, Jan 24, 2011.

The rules of probability seem to indicate that the powers that be on this site are stealing tasting notes from members of Cellar Tracker and posting them here without proper permission/attribution.  This is my first, last and only post to ask members why they would put up with such behavior.

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Replies

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Reply by MReff, Jan 24, 2011.

considering that I really never noticed, my response is why not put up with such behavior. 

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Reply by Philip James, Jan 25, 2011.

Kelpcowboy - I responded to the first post here: http://www.bojago.com/. I had already submitted it by the time that the second post was written, I'll write a response next. thanks

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Reply by dmcker, Jan 25, 2011.

Without knowing any specifics, it's impossible to respond, kelpcowboy.

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Reply by John Andrews, Jan 25, 2011.

@Kelpcowboy ... isn't also plausible that some people here are members of both sites, like I am?  As such, wouldn't it make sense that I'd share reviews on both sites?  

If you're making me choose one site or the other ... you're gonna be disappointed.

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Reply by Stephen Harvey, Jan 25, 2011.

I think this person registered on the site and posted a complaint.

The complaint does not even make sense.  Although it did seem to ring a bell with Philip

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Reply by gregt, Jan 25, 2011.

For what it's worth -

http://www.wineberserkers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39234&sid=ebbacd347963e087997bdb252fd72ea4

No judgment.  But I hope it's not true.

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Reply by gregt, Jan 25, 2011.

And Phillip responded.  http://www.bojago.com/2011/01/ 

Here's hoping that's the end of it.  I like both parties here. Don't want to see Eric hurt - I have a lot of respect for him.  And don't want to see Phillip's rep sullied either.

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Reply by JonDerry, Jan 25, 2011.

Have to say i'm a big fan of cellar tracker but have spent more time here lately, and doing many 1st reviews for wines these last few days.  Kind of wondering if this has been a waste of my time.  I didn't get a good impression from Snooth the first time I was on here a couple years ago, and now it looks like a few members of this community are providing most of it's value, along with web crawlers and search placements.   

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Reply by Gregory Dal Piaz, Jan 25, 2011.

Hey Jon, that's a call for you to make. There is a community here, and we share information, knowledge, and opinions just like any on-line forum. I work all day everyday trying to provide original, enjoyable, and informative content trying to make Snooth a place people want to come to and chat about wine. Learning and sharing as they go.

I hope you decide to stick around and see what happens.

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Reply by hhotdog, Jan 25, 2011.

i believe the mix of the expirience level here is what drives the interest to come back agin and again. i had been to other sites and found snooth the most welcoming to all wine lovers of all levels.  i have been to cellar tracker and it is not the same game. i never felt so welcomed in an online community before.  everyone has to satart at the beginning.  this is the place to move forward to learn and share what you have expireinced with your journey in wine.  i can't even begin to know the amount of times in beginners corner seeing GDP,Phillip,Dmcker,SH,HJ,GT,MR,NG,GDD and many other of the knoweldgeable members and staff here welcome and answer any ...and i mean ANY of the questions anyone asks. if not knowing the answers to point you to the person or direction to help you find your answer. this has to be the most friendly easy going destinations online. 

if anyone from cellar tracker has a beef why sneak in and write a post and sneak out?  just take it up with the guys running snooth in private? kudos to snooth for not hiding and keeping up the post.

perhaps it is a way for them to get attention...good or bad attention is still attention?

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Reply by Philip James, Jan 25, 2011.

http://www.bojago.com/2011/01/25/an-apology-to-cellartracker/

i posted a response here - its complex, and relates to an agreement that was in place over 3 years ago.

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Reply by hhotdog, Jan 25, 2011.

hey philip, just a little protctive of all the peeps here at snooth.  rant over now! i think only you and CT should handle this before it blown way...and i mean way out of proportion.

 

 

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Reply by JonDerry, Jan 26, 2011.

Definitely Greg, I can see and appreciate all you're doing here.

What's amazing to me is to see such a big website with only about a dozen or so consistent and active members on this forum.

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Reply by VegasOenophile, Jan 26, 2011.

I post on both sites and I am sure a good many people do, so is that wht's being referred to?  Beyond that, posting things online rather puts them into the public domain category and as it's a forum and not a blog belonging to and copyrighted by that author, it seems to be a non-issue in my estimation

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Reply by dmcker, Jan 26, 2011.

From RM on the WineBerserker site:

"This is slowly becoming the greatest thread ever. Is it too late to get it nominated for a berserkerday award?"

If nothing else, this controversy has fueled a furious batting around of the shuttlecok over there....

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Reply by Gregory Dal Piaz, Jan 26, 2011.

Hey Jon, I think, and have said it before, that that is our own fault. We don't direct people here well. There are many ways to add comments on Snooth and the disipatee rather than concentrate the mass of those comments. The forum is alos not the easiest page to find, but hopefully we'll be able to make changes to improve these problems moving forward.

And yes, this is some controversy. I was going to respond on the WB forum, I'm a amember there as well as a paying member and user of CellrTracker for over 5 years, but the level of vitriol and meanspiritedness caused me to show some restraint.

I was asked a question yesterday by a gentleman at the Vino2011 seminar I was speaking at. He asked me who handled a certain biz de responsibilty here at Snooth. I've been here for a long time, I know what every one does, but I did not an answer, because no one had ever asked the question. I'm not saying that this situation is identical, but sometimes someone has to tell you something is awry before you cam see it.

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Reply by Stephen Harvey, Jan 26, 2011.

I have read Philips response and it seems to me to quite reasonable and that the approach taken by Snooth is eminently sensible

Cellartracker seems to be a good site and I have used it often in researching wine.

I am somewhat intrigued by the collective vitriol on the Winebeserkers site.  I suspect it comes from  a smallish group of anti-snoothers, just as we have people with dislikes on Snooth [eg dmcker and I when i comes to NZSB].

I must say that by playing out his issue in public Eric did not enhance his reputation in my mind, but such is life.

Lets hope it is resolved in a sensisble manner as is seemingly set out by Philip

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Reply by napagirl68, Jan 27, 2011.

Yikes... I go away for awhile, and then this!

I have to 100% agree with VegasOenophile- like it or not, right or wrong, once you put something on the internet, it is "fair game".  For lack of better term, it seems "public", for now at least.  I, personally, do not agree with this lack of privacy... but look at facebook.  You post a picture, a friend can download that photo, put it on their site, and it can end up any and everywhere.  Also, vendors can "take" your data from these various sites, such as your email, phone number, name, addy, etc. etc.   I think in the years to come, many of these issues will end up in court, and new laws will come into play to protect both individuals and business.

As for this issue-  I read the two links gregT posted.  It is my personal opinion that extracting key words is NOT the same as taking a review and reposting it as your own.  I am very impressed with Philip's candidness, and methinks a mountain is being made of a molehill.

BTW- when I look up a wine on google, oftentimes the first top three results are from CellarTracker.  I would not be surprised to find numerous wine blogs with wine descriptors similar to CellarTracker reviews.  As a matter of fact, when I look up a wine review on various blogs/sites, I tend to see VERY similar keywords on MANY sites.  I have even seen an individual's "tasting review" be the winemaker's notes from the winery's site, ad verbatim! 

 

 

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Reply by Stephen Harvey, Jan 27, 2011.

NG

Wheres ya bin girl?

Seriously, you make a good point.  The internet is an open forum, if you want it kept a secret, write it on a piece of paper and file it in a bank vault and hope Wikileaks don't find it.

The more I think about it the more the Cellartrackers people confuse me.  I think they have a great site with very good data, if Snooth aggregates it and more people recognise Cellartracker TN's the more likely they are to visit the site.

I use their data for all of my wine dinner research because it is good.

Sadly some people suffer too much from "Precious Pumpkin" syndrome.  Anyone who has experienced a 13-16yo daughter will understand this concept!!

My point on NG's comment is that the law which is generally based on an aggregation of 5,000 years of Ancient English precedence is struggling to cope with the practical realities of the digital age.

Let us not forget that nearly all of the internets clever technology has been developed by the porn industry which has spent 5,000 years trying to outwit legislators.  AND until 2007 over 50% of all internet traffic was porn related.

Hopefully Snooth and Cellartracker are tilting the numbers towards more interesting content and should spend more time collaborating on how to get more of the 9b people on planet Earth to use the internet for wine research and enjoyment. Deep Throat should be more about the length of a Bordeaux/Napa/Coonawarra Cabernet than the LL version!!!!

Kelpcowboy - get a life!!!!

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Reply by dmcker, Jan 27, 2011.

I'm going to beg to differ with you both a bit, NG and SH. I don't think the internet is fair game in copyright terms, nor are lawmakers and interpreters going to see it that way, as is in the process of being thrashed out current day. Napster, Limewire, Pirate Bay, TV Shack, et al., et al.  are easy examples in other contexts, though that's not what is being alleged with regards to Snooth's crawling and supposed scraping. Scraping itself is viewed with increasingly jaundiced eyes from a huge no. of sources.

Intellectual property concepts in the legal context have developed over a couple of centuries or more, and now are having to be tweaked as new technology changes things so greatly. But they're not going to go away, or just be made somehow null and void because of something called the Internet, Facebook's lax 'privacy settings' (talk about an oxymoron) be damned. A larger debate that I hesitate to get into in too general terms, because then this thread could take on legs for the next decade or so, is how much free access and common use should be allowed for whatever type of info, vs what kind of original work should be protected so that its creators/owners can be allowed to reap the benefits of their labors for whatever length of time (or so that one party cannot benefit without permission from another party's work)--in other words, the whole basis of intellectual property as it has evolved to now.

Keeping to the current context, personally I would not be happy to see my reviews nabbed without permission and posted, even with a modicum of editing, on commercial sites whose business model is greatly predicated on advertising, and in any case positions themselves as content providers. Where is the content coming from and how is it acquired is a very real concern. These are the issues that the WineBerserkers site is discussing quite legitimately, I feel, though whether the feeding frenzy tone of a large part of that discussion is cool or not is another topic. And the founder of Cellar Tracker is certainly well within both his rights and his responsibility as a business manager to investigate/question/discuss how someone may be improperly utilizing the intellectual property he is aggregating and housing and supposedly protecting.

As Philip states in his blog, this may just be a case of tag use that continued inadvertently after it should have been cut off. Looking at things in a less emotional, more coolheaded business manner, I see an opportunity here for CT and Snooth to discuss a new licensing agreement (as I posted on the WB site). Dealing with these issues should improve Snooth. And who knows, it and we might even be able to gain from more direct access to that often/sometimes/?? bunch of wine reviews, etc. over at CT.

I am both an optimist and a realist. ;-)

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