Wine Talk

Snooth User: cigarman168

Bordeaux En Primeur

Posted by cigarman168, Dec 19, 2009.

How do you compare 2008 & 2009 Bordeaux En Primeur. Worth buying?

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Replies

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Reply by WLG at TWIST, Dec 19, 2009.

There is no doubt that the 2009 vintage will give way to outstanding wines. The question is, however, at what price. The next few months will be a real cat and mouse game in the wine world. The Bordelais will try to position the vintage to recapture 2005 prices. The fundamental mistake they will be making is that the quality of a vintage and Parker ratings are no longer the only driver of price. Demand is know just as important, and demand will be lower than in 05. The US economy is still very fragile, and Asia cannot absorb lack of sales in the U.S. As a result, the 09 vintage will be 10% to 15% lower in price than 05 and well at that those prices it will certainly be worth buying.

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Reply by rhill2990, Dec 19, 2009.

Could you please explain what Bordeaux en Primeur means. I am an avid fan of Bordeaux wines and am trying to learn more.

Thanks

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Reply by cigarman168, Dec 20, 2009.

@rhill : En Primeur is a French term for wine sold on a 'futures' basis before being bottled.
The consumer pays the cost of the wine at the time of their order. The wine is shipped up to two years later when the bottled wines are released. Just similar to buying futures in Stock market. It is somekind of financing method used by the famous winery especially the 5 first growth.

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Reply by cigarman168, Dec 20, 2009.

@WLG : As I heard that 2009 EP is expecting better than 05 and may hit the price as 2000. Also state that many are just on the waiting list for 09 EP. BTW, is there any way we can check the past records price for EP? And where is the good deal to buy EP those there is lots of merchants in HK that claims to sell EP?

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Reply by zufrieden, Dec 20, 2009.

When I was in France (briefly) in August, there was much talk about the potential for '09. Now that the harvest is in, the high quality of the fruit is pretty much confirmed. It is safe to say that there will be more than a bit of buying interest once things get going.

But in the meantime, the more modest 2008 vintage is showing very well and will prove much the better buy. The situation may be similar, comparatively speaking, to the marvelous but over-hyped 2005 vintage. In my experience, a significant minority of key Bordeaux properties produced products as good or better during 2004 and 2006 - years clearly more difficult in the Bordeaux than 2005.

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Reply by rhill2990, Dec 20, 2009.

Thanks, Cigarman.

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Reply by cigarman168, Dec 20, 2009.

I really like to hear some success story that anyone got profits in buying EP.

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Reply by zufrieden, Dec 20, 2009.

Now there's a thought! I don't usually stock up for profit, but I know those who do. If I here back about locals out here on the West Coast buying significant amounts of en primeur Bordeaux wine I will let you know - particularly where profit appears to be significnat enough to drive some interest! No promises though - some people get a bit reticent during recessions...

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Reply by VegasOenophile, Dec 24, 2009.

I do love Bordeaux wines, but I think regardless of the perceived quality of the 2005s, their pricing for the top level ones was just insane. They were always more costly based on reputation, especially the First Growths, but $1500 a bottle? A bottle?!?! Come on. Our liquor stores here have cases and cases so obviously the 96-100 point ratings and all the buzz aren't selling them out. Who'd really spend that on one bottle when you can get some great wines from Chile, Italy, CA, WA, OR and so on, CASES of them for the one-bottle-price from Bordeaux? Even if I had that kind of cash, I'd have a hard time throwing down that much on newer bottles. It's cyclical and other legendary vintages are bound to come along, from numerous regions.

As for futures, I am pretty new to the collector-thing, so I have never bought. If the Bordeaux futures are going to stay so inflated, I won't be buying them.

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Reply by zufrieden, Dec 24, 2009.

It is hard to argue against the cost dimension. Those of us who love Bordeaux - particularly those wines out of reach of most budgets - admit that prices have reached a stage where this beverage is now a bailiwick of the rich (or the impecunious). For 95% of our drinking, most of us (I think) agree with you: there are much better bargains to be had outside of France (and now Italy). However, there remains the issue of style. I find that, traditionally at least, most Bordeaux properties have a certain approach to wine making that appeals to many wine-drinkers. Though there are many who would copy the style, finesse and flavor profiles of these wines, most ultimately fail.

Now that does not mean that the competition is not extremely good; it just implies a certain difference of bearing. I love wines from Argentina, California, Washington, Oregon, Chile, Australia, Canada and South Africa but recognize that, for reasons of clonal selection, style preferences, terroir, and climate things work out somewhat differently depending on the players and the location.

So, I say, in general, go with quality for price. The problem for some of us is that we have developed a taste for certain wines that, unfortunately, come from a region in France that is in great demand. This causes problems in terms of price, availability, and a certain pampering effect with respect to producers. As with New World wines, you need to be quite selective or quality will soon divorce itself from price.

As for futures, these are usually for serious, serious collectors - some of whom, like cigarman, can see some possible profit in the prudent selection of wines from certain vintages. All the more power to them!

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Reply by danieboi, Jan 20, 2015.

Are the 2009s still drinking well in early 2015?

 

Thank you

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Reply by JonDerry, Jan 20, 2015.

I would expect them to drink ok, but would hold expensive bottles $80+ another 3-5 years before getting in to most of your stash.

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Reply by dmcker, Jan 20, 2015.

They will last a *lot* longer, if that's your concern. I wouldn't be drinking most any of them yet, even the modernized labels. In the past, five years was only a chance for them to settle down before beginning proper maturing, which could go on for decades depending on the label. Now so many labels are trying to make themselves available earlier but they still will benefit from laying down. If you haven't had a properly aged claret, you won't know the value of the region. It's the difference between dating someone in their teens vs. in their 30s....

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Reply by JonDerry, Jan 20, 2015.

Well said...

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Reply by GregT, Jan 22, 2015.

Except that it depends on where in Bordeaux you're talking about. It's a huge place and the various subregions can be quite different. I had a number of 2009s that were around 15% alcohol and they're not in need of much aging, particularly from St. Emilion.

That said, we just started 2015. A 2009 anything from anywhere isn't that old except for maybe the cheapest and simplest whites and rosados.

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Reply by Globalwinescore, Jun 14.

Hello!

We created a new rating system the Global Wine Score available since April 2017. 

It aggregates critics notations from famous journalists with a great reputation (Robert Parker, Jancis Robinson, Tim Atkin, etc., ....). Our aim is to give a rating objective as possible and being a consensus of all the wine critics.

For the moment, our ratings concern only Bordeaux wines. We plan to add wines from other regions very soon.

This score is totally free and very useful to compare wines from different producers, appellations and/or vintages.

You will find this score on the following website: www.globalwinescore.com

Please feel free to comment because as we are still in development (beta phase),  all your suggestions will be very welcome!

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Reply by rckr1951, Jun 14.

GWS - Interesting.  Can you provide a link to your information - it would something of interest to check out.  Also, what is the pedigree of the staff doing the work and is this just a comp. of  information aggregated to make it easier for those seeking information or are your groups opinions involved?

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Reply by JonDerry, Jun 14.

I've noticed the hype surrounding 2016 Figeac and want to partake...it has me thinking of 14' and 15' to go along with it.

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Reply by Globalwinescore, Jun 15.

Hello !

Thanks for your interest in the Global Wine Score.

Here is a link to our website homepage: www.globalwinescore.com .

We’re Scorelab, a start-up company based in Bordeaux. You will find further information about our company on the following website: www.scorelab.io/ (Phd in Mathematics, Physics and IT engineers, more info on our website).

We apply our mathematics skills to the wine sector and more specifically to wine scores.

I am not sure to understand your question. We do aggregate wine scores from the most influential (?) wine experts. You can find more info about our methodology: 

http://globalwinescore.groovehq.com/knowledge_base/topics/global-wine-score-how-it-is-calculated

http://globalwinescore.groovehq.com/knowledge_base/topics/confidence-index

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Reply by rckr1951, Jun 16.

Went to the site and scanned my way through and have a question.  Why does everybody ignore Vinous?  It's Antonio Galloni's and he bought out Steve Tanzer's International Wine Cellars.  Steve continues to write for Vinous and between them they do a lot of work.

This site still lists Steve Tanzer but fails to recognize AG and Vinous.

Was it just that your timing and personnel didn't allow for them or are they not recognized yet?

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